I am not sure no one among us has not encountered a situation where one of his friends of relatives is in love with someone from a different religion. This is common and very natural to happen in a society such as the Lebanese one.
And for those who think those clichés are old fashioned and over, I think they are increasing by the day specially with the new generations that are facing increasing sectarian divisions.
Ivy says had such a story to share with us few days back, a story which unfortunatelly ended with the couple breaking up, because the guy wanted his gf to turn Muslim and felt betrayed that “Maya wouldn’t do such a “small formality†to be with him”.
I personally believe It is the couple’s mistake here, mainly Karim’s and not the parents or society in anyway. Parents may be demanding, but two people getting into a serious relationship should know better how to handle this matter from the beginning.
– If they are too attached to their religion, and are against any sort of civil marriage, it is better they break up than drag the relationship to the point of no return. Proof is the guy got engaged few weeks after leaving the supposedly love of his life.
– If both are not that religious and love each other, they could simply ignore their parents’ and move along with a civil marriage.
– If the parents are too demanding or annoying, and the couple is not that religious or at least attached to their religion, one could turn into the other religion and make everyone happy. Afterall, if you don’t go to church or to the mosque that much and are living a “sinner’s” life, it won’t make any difference whether you’re Christian or Muslim.
– Last option is dropping your religion and enrolling in the Jedi Church in Canada.
Small correction: he had asked his girlfriend to do a katb kteib and not turn muslim like you mention in your post… since that option is allowed between a Muslim guy and a Christian girl.
How can she do a katb kteb without turning muslim?
Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women as long as they are “People of the Book” (Ahl el Kitab) and that includes Christians and Jews.
Phandy,
Katb Kitab is an Islamic marriage, meaning acknowledging the Islamic Shariaa meaning that you are no longer a Christian because whatever the Koran defines as Christian is not the same definition of the Bible.
Najib, you are still wrong! No, she doesn’t become muslim! It is just that the couple will have to follow the muslim laws in cases of divorce, child custody, inheritance…etc
Just like if a muslim married a christian in church he/ she doesn’t “turn” christian…
or even just like if u have a civil marriage doesn’t turn u into a non-believer 😉
Christine,
What difference does it make?
You follow the Muslims laws and abide by everything Islam dictates but you are still a Christian?
What you guys are not grasping is the fundamental difference between both religions. Nevertheless, My aim is not here to go into a religious debate, that was not the point of the topic.
comparing civil marriange and katb kteib is like …
anyway, a civil marriage is a contract binding the relationship according to terms chosen and revisited by the couple themselves (and their lawyers if needed).
katb kteib is a document by which the couple sign to acknowledge that their marriage is completely governed by Islam marriage rules.
anyway, if they’re no religious folks, civil marriage is the way. if both are religious; they better stay off each others. after marriage there might be kids and well… let’s pick up their names, religion, and schools! let alone the outfit…
that’s hard. i wish luck to all the “mixed” couples out there..
What do you mean “what difference does it make?”!!!!
Religion is a personal belief! No, she would not have to abide by everything Islam dictates, she won’t have to pray 5 times/ day or fast for Ramadan…
Easier example, a christian living in Saudi has to follow Muslim laws, but is not a muslim!
I understand this was not the point of your post… but you still had the wrong information
Christine,
What is the difference then between Katb Kitab and civil marriage then?
Going through the Katb Kitab is acknowledging some Islamic rules, which defies your Christian beliefs. How hard is that to assimilate?
You cannot be a true Christian and go through the Katb Kitab. It is as simple as that.
khallas, to each his own…
just get my name right next time 😉
Sorry.
I fixed it.
Najib,
Christine makes a point on Katb Kitab would mean the girl would not convert. I think if she does do a Katb Kitab, hence follow Islamic laws, it would make a difference in divorce. Muslims have their laws on divorce which I believe would be different if compared to civil marriage divorce. Plus it would oblige the children to be Muslim and to abide by the laws of Islam.
I however, do agree with the points you made in your post.
I understand Rita but I don’t think it complies with the Christian teachings, hence it would look like she’s trying to go around her own belief.
Do you agree even with the last option? May the power be with you then 😛
Regardless of the whole argument which I am sure neither side convinced the other – this is a huge problem in Lebanon. We had a similar issue in my family where my cousin married out of our religion, needless to say my parents and I were the only ones talking to her. It was sad and hard time.
Lol! I meant the other valid points you meant!
It definitely does not comply with Christian teachings. I personally believe mixed marriages are ok for those who are not practicers of their religion. They can then convert for society’s sake or just go to cyprus for a civil marriage. I personally know a few couples who did get married and ironically enough it was the man who converted to make things easier with the girls family. Looking at their life after marriage, they seem ok. Most of them celebrate Christian and Muslim holidays and teach their kids of both religions.
May the force be with you.
Hi Guys & Girls, this is a very touchy subject you’re getting into, and Najib, you can’t keep saying that’s not the point of the post when you discuss something so sensitive. stick by your post and be spongy a bit, especially when you are not too sure of a certain point.
Mixed religion Marriages are a risk, even if neither of the parties convert. When the man is the Muslim side of the story, the implications are immense, the kids will have to follow his religion, and stay under his care in case things turn south with the mother (as well as other stuff), that point alone causes a heap of trouble, something many Christian girls don’t think of when they get into the battle with their families and friends. the girls tend to think the marriage will last forever, but in many cases (not all) the man grows older, he becomes more religious, more demanding (within his full rights of believe I must add), and the cultural divide between the Muslim husband and his Christian woman grows interminably. What then? she would want to leave but will be stuck in an unhappy, unnatural relationship just for the kids…now that is wrong on all accounts even if you were an atheist. When the Women is Muslim and the guy a Christian, it almost never actually gets going as i have learned from my experiences with friends because of many reasons, guys are usually steadfast on conversion and Muslim families tend to pressure the girl away from the union (would love to hear about a successful religious marriage between a christian guy and a Muslim woman that doesn’t involve conversion)
and in the case where one of the parties converts, are they converting on full conviction? people got to remember that religion is a big part of who you are. you are raised by its values and traditions. teachings and believes, they are as big a part of you as your gender and national creed. you cannot just change for the sake of your loved one because you want to make the union work (in this case whey doesn’t the other side convert, it’s one of the most obscure battles that happens between couples, usually with the non covert declaring silent victory). Conversion has to be done on full conviction full stop.
Now, I’m in a civil marriage, i chose to do so not because my wife and I are of different religions, we did it because it was convenient for us and we don’t really believe in greedy men of the church. But that doesn’t mean that it’s any less binding. Whether you’re marrying under Islam, Christianity, or the Law, you make a vow to yourself and to the one you want to spend the rest of your life with. and when you take that decision, when you make that vow, you have to be fully aware of what you’re getting yourself into and be fully responsible to carry it through, till death do you part… not because the religious atmosphere in the house has become too much for your taste….
I’m not against inter religious marriages, but it take a lot of preparation, a lot of maturity and a hell of lot of acceptance and leniency to be able to be a successful one, and those are things young people with not much experience in life do not have, even if they are not practitioners.
Ronman,
I am not sure if you followed up the comments, but the point of whether katb kitab means or does not mean you are muslim has NOTHING to do with my subject.
I know Najib, I’m just stating my view on the subject as a whole. Katb Kitab does not literally make you a Muslim, you are not a convert yet, but you put yourself under the subjection of Islamic laws that have nothing to do with your own religion’s laws and rituals.
I understand your point as well, because once you sign the Kitab you’re through the door of Islam, and even if you do eventually convert will you do it out of conviction or just because you love your partner and want to make him happy?
it’s a touchy subject, and it’s very personal to a lot of people, and i hope i don’t offend anyone, but an understanding of what the other culture really trully is, is vital to the succes of not just inter religious marriage but to our coexistence in Lebanon.
by the way, great work on the Blog, i’ve been a dedicated reader for the past 2 month or so…let me know if you want extra bloggers.
Should two people marry is they hold different philosophical beliefs? I do not see why not; unless one or both of them is/are bringing the practices into the relationship (for whatever reason – parents, kids or neighbors) then go on practice what you preach and do not cross lines you are infected…
If civil marriages in Lebanon existed.. we’d all have to follow the law of our country and not religious laws. Secondly, if one can’t handle walking down the aisle or doing a katb ktab why the hell is the individual in a mixed relationship. These are formalities- just do it and move on. They in technicality mean nothing and are simply to announce marriage before people and God.
The whole point with Islam allowing the Muslim men to marry “women of the book” is so that the women convert to Islam. It is expected. However it does not always happen this way. He should keep trying to convince her to convert. I think marrying someone from a different culture is hard enough much less add different religions to the pot. I always wonder how a marriage of this sorts works… I know they can work, but how?! And you hit it right on the head saying: “if you don’t go to church or to the mosque that much and are living a “sinner’s†life, it won’t make any difference whether you’re Christian or Muslim.”