[Picture Courtesy of NowLebanon]
With all due respect to Shiites in Lebanon who perform or agree with the self immolation tradition, but is that really the best way to commemorate Ashoura day? Can’t you symbolically reproduce what happened without turning it into a bloodshed? Is it rational to have young children at such events?
I thought the Shiite political parties took a decision to stop this tradition. Not only this is unacceptable and sends out a very bad image of Lebanon, but it’s life-threatening for those who do it and is a complete waste of blood.
El-jahel only does stuff like this. Because Allah (in Islam) told us to put our life before Him and before Islam. That’s the general rule though maybe in Shiism its different.
I’m sorry, but your tone is completely racist. Starting with the first line, you addressed your comment to ALL shiites. Are all shiites taking part in this practice or are you blaming them all as a group??
And besides, the shiite tradition of self immolation was historically borrowed from arab christians who still have similar rituals for good friday up to this day. I don’t see you complaining about bloodshed and self-immolation on good friday, nor being outraged about making children watch the passion of christ or any movie about jesus which includes gruesome scenes from the crucifixion…
Haytham,
As far as I understand, Shiites are the ones who celebrate Ashoura day and some of them perform this tradition? That’s all what’s meant from the comment. I will rephrase it to make it 100% clear.
As for it being a Christian tradition, such things are banned by the Church since ever and those who crucify themselves are highly condemned by the Vatican. I don’t see Shiite clerics complaining about those methods either in Lebanon or anywhere so it’s different. I thought HA & Amal had banned this tradition but it seems to still be alive.
As for the Passion of the Christ, it was banned for under 18 if I am not mistaken and it has again NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. It’s a pure reproduction of what happened with Jesus Christ with the Romans. I don’t see people getting beaten and tortured the same way in real life. It’s a movie !!!
“I don’t see Shiite clerics complaining about those methods either in Lebanon or anywhere so it’s different.”
That’s because you didn’t search duh, both Sayed Ali Khamenei and Sayed Ali Sistani forbid it, the people who do it are also a minority, but you had to find an excuse to justify your racism.
Fail More.
Khamenei and Sistani are Lebanese eh???
And what is wrong with you and racism? Do u even know what that means ???
Why are u saying they are a minority? And even if so why don’t u find it wrong? Because Its a minority?? Or ur proud of such thing??
Khamenei is Iranian and so is Sistani, in Shiaa theology you follow a marji3 based on who is appointed by other clerics as most fit, some clerics say it is Sayed Khamenei some say Sayed Sistani I used them as an example because most Shiaa’s worldwide follow their teachings, nationality has nothing to do it, (Just like the current pope is German)
Once again you prove you open your mouth and start spouting off without having a damn clue about the subject.
Khamenei is Iranian, Sistani is Iraqi, Mohammad Hussein Fadlullah is Lebanese and all three have called upon believers to stop this act. Here’s a quote from Lebanese Grand Ayatollah Sayed Fadlullah forbidding “tatbir” (blood letting..) with a link to a poster used by his organization to campaign against the act:
قلنا ÙÙŠ عاشوراء، وأصدرنا Ùتوى تØرّم على الذين ينذرون أولادهم للتطبير هذا الÙعل، لأن الله سو٠يعاقبهم على ذلك، لأنه ليس للأب ولاية بأن ÙŠØ¬Ø±Ø Ø§Ø¨Ù†Ù‡ØŒ وإن كان يريد بذلك أن يعلّم ابنه Øب الØسين، ÙالØسين(ع) لا يقبل القيام بمثل هذه التصرÙات، لأنها تمثّل التخلÙØŒ بل يريد منّا السير على خطه ومنهجه. وكما بينّا سابقاً، Ùإن التلÙزيونات العالمية تبرز صورة سيئة عن المسلمين، تصوّÙر رجلاً وبين يديه ولده الذي ضرب على رأسه والدماء تسيل على وجهه، والولد يبكي بكاءً يقطّع نيا٠القلب، وقد كتبت Ø¥Øدى الصØ٠الكندية: “هذا ÙŠÙعمل باسم الله”ØŒ أي إن تعذيب الأطÙال بهذه الطريقة الوØشية يرتكب باسم الله، ÙˆÙÙŠ هذا تشويه لصورة الإسلام والمسلمين، والمؤس٠أن هذه الØالة تزداد جراء العصبيات. https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10150400872987405&set=a.110795752404.95943.110786897404&type=1&theater
Can you provide sources with your claims? Because the idea of Muslim Shiites borrowing the idea of auto sacrifice from Arab Christians just seems absurd to me. And secondly, how is Najib being racist? Being shiite is not a race, it’s a religious group. And what does the passion of the Christ movie have to do with Ashura rituals being practiced by real people in the streets? Can’t you express your sorrow on this holy day by just praying and fasting?
– The source:
“And it is believed that some aspects of `Ashurah celebrations must have come to Shi`ite Islam from Christian passion plays, just as Shi`ism incorporates a messianic belief.”
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2004/03/yesterday-i-saw-mel-gibsons-passion.html
Feel free to believe it or not. But that aside, you only focused on my mention of the movie, what about real life reenactments of the passion? They still happen until now all over the world?
http://goo.gl/GTyDv (warning: gruesome images)
– Fine, his tone earlier wasn’t racist but was sectarian. He changed the wording to something better.
Okay, in a way your comments are both wrong. I’m pretty sure last year, Shi3i clerics made a point to tell people not to self-harm just like the the Vatican has for Christians. But at the end of the day, those who take on this kind of thing aren’t concerned about what cleric x said, clearly. Instead they are taking in what they saw growing up and potentially what they perceive is necessary for this holiday. I’ll go back to my point, its jihil. If Islam doesn’t promote it (like I mentioned above) and Christianity doesn’t either (I’m not sure about rulings exactly), then plainly its wrong.
As for the movie Passion of the Christ, I saw that with my siblings (I’m the oldest) way before I was 18. We see violence on TV all the time. Its so normal now. But either way has nothing to do with the topic.
All-in-all, education, financial stability, and social stability play a role in this. I’m not judging these people for lacking these things either. I think you have to understand that this is how they understand the world. You are lucky to be able to see things in another way.
This is disgusting, even Hezbollah said that people should refrain from this barbaric ritual and instead donate the blood to those in need. How would losing massive amounts of blood be any good religiously? The sheer thought of it makes me cringe, just think of all the blood that might be infected with god knows what, such a risk is just not worth it.
It’s their right to follow whatever traditions they want, what right do you have to judge? Shi’ites all across the world celebrate Ashoura and go through this part of their celebrations, it has nothing to do with Lebanon or a nationality in particular.
Do you want someone to come and tell you how to celebrate Christmas? “You can’t buy gifts anymore because that encourages capitalism and not the religious holiday and birth of Christ, it’s sending out the wrong messages!”
Patrick,
Shiites celebrate Ashoura in many different ways in Lebanon. Given that this is banned by Iranian Shiite clerics as mentioned in a previous comment, such celebrations should be banned in Lebanon.
As for comparing it to Christmas celebration, that’s just absurd. However, if I see some Lebanese guy getting crucified for real to commemorate Good Friday, I will have the same reaction.
Such acts are resulting from ignorance and having the news broadcast such bloody scenes are harmful for all of us Lebanese, so I have the right to give my opinion on the matter.
It is forbidden but it is not banned which means that it is considered wrong to do it, but if someone does it or not is up to him.
There are, as posted above Christians as well as many other religions who also self flagellate that doesn’t give me or you the right to stop them if they are not hurting anyone else, they should be persuaded that it is wrong not coerced into stopping it.
How is it absurd? Just because self mutilation isn’t involved? You view it one way and they view it another. Has there ever been a death reported because of this practice? None that I can think of and none that Google can find.
How is this practice a result of ignorance? There are plenty of different religions in the world that have a variety of practices that is supposed to test the limit of the human body, just because you don’t agree with one doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
You should do some research into Christians that crucify themselves on certain Christian holidays. There was also a South Korean who killed himself through crucifying himself over last Easter. An extreme example, but this sort of thing happens.
And if a person judges an entire nation over an event like this, then that shows that person to be very ignorant, that’s a whole separate issue, I think most intelligent folk are smart enough to know this is limited to a specific sect of a religion.
They are Shiites so it’s not a specific sect or group but a whole sect involved and their spiritual leaders forbid them.
“Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is Haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt’s (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss”
http://www.ezsoftech.com/mazloom/zanjeer.asp
The Christian guy you refer to is condemmed by The Catholic Church as any other display of violence to commemorate Christian holidays and he does send out a bad image about Christianity by doing so.
Someone stranger to Lebanon will not be very impressed when looking at such images on a yearly basis.
No offense Naj but you really need to read more before passing judgement, even though I disagree with the practice I want to correct you about somethings that you have got way wrong.
“They are Shiites so it’s not a specific sect or group but a whole sect involved and their spiritual leaders forbid them.”
1 Shias are in fact split into different sects and these different sects are further splintered into smaller groups, e.g Zaidis Ismailis
2 Notice that I said in my previous post that the MAJORITY of Shia Marji3s forbid this practice, there is a minority that does not forbid this practice wiki tatbir and you will find examples.
“Someone stranger to Lebanon will not be very impressed when looking at such images on a yearly basis.”
Then it is his problem, nobody asked for his/her acceptance.
Once again I say that although I disagree with this practice there is no need to make disparaging remarks about people who do it, regardless if he is a Jew,Hindu,Christian,muslim etc.
If you want to convince someone you don’t do it by ridiculing their beleifs.
PS- Please research more before making your points and I mean it as advice not trying to put you down.
Abuuud,
Your first comment was very well noted and I corrected my statement in regards to Shiite clercs in Lebanon and anywhere else and even mentioned it in one of the comments, however the point you are arguing about is not the one I was discussing.
Whether there are many sects among Shiites or not, it is not a small sect of Shiites that is performing those acts. Assuming it is a small sect, we both know that the biggest majority of Shiites in Lebanon follow two key political parties and that none can organize such a festivity without their consent, and we know where the Majliss el Shi3e el A3la stands here.
If Hezbolla and Amal forbid it, no group will be able to pull such a thing.
As for people’s perception of Lebanon, I don’t care if its his problem or not, but we should not be too proud if our country is linked to war, terrorism, bloodshed, bombings etc …
We should try to make our country look good, don’t we? For ourselves before others.
And the 222nd ranking I posted about after is not something to be happy about.
So no one is riduculing anyone’s belief. I for myself disagree with such practices and believe Shiites should ban them the same way Church bans people crucifying themselves etc …
I always enjoy hearing other people’s feedback and I do my part of the research, but the arguments we are tackling are far from the one I was making, that we’d be better without those practices and that Ashoura can be commemorated in a decent manner like it’s done in several areas in Lebanon.
Najib, it is not up to Hizbullah or Amal to decide what people can and cannot do, and they acknowledge it. This is why they try to persuade people to stop doing it.
As for them being the 2 big shia parties in Lebanon does not give them the right to ban it because it is a religous ceremony, as long as the people participating are not hurting anyone then they are free to do what they want. If you feel offended nobody forced you to watch.
Once again I say if someone is going to base his opinions about my country based on what certain people do then he can frankly go to hell because he is generalising.
When you say the church bans people from crucifying themselves did everybody stop doing it? no, even though the Church banned it.
As for your last point” that we’d be better without those practices and that Ashoura can be commemorated in a decent manner”
It is not up to you to tell people, any people regardless of religion wether what they are doing is decent or not or that we’d be better of without them.
Let’s agree to disagree on the first two points. I don’t want to turn this into a political topic.
As for the last part, I am free to state my opinion on a specific matter that goes against most religious practices and beliefs and ask that it be stopped. I did not ask police to go arrest them. Whether people listen or not is their problem, but it’s not up to you to tell me what I should tell people or not. I did not insult any religion or sect, I just said there’s definitly a better way to commemorate this day and those who are assigned to guide Shi’ites religiously happen to agree with me, so I don’t see what’s ur point.
Sorry mate, but no you where the guy that said that the two political parties could and should stop it.
If you dont know how these ceremonies and if you think that the shia wait for hezb and amal to tell them what they are allowed and not allowed to do start spreading silly misinformation, based on your prejudices, then I am going to call you out on it, you don’t just throw stupid accusations left and right and expect people who actually know about the subject matter to shut up, ok mate?
As for the last part, sure it is your right to say what you want, but if you start spouting patronising crap about what people should be allowed to do, then once again I will call you out on it.
“those who are assigned to guide Shi’ites religiously happen to agree with me”
Absolute crap, did you actually read my comment or do I have to do all the heavy lifting for you?
there is not a consensus among shia marji3s that it is forbidden, of course you didnt know that marji3s are assigned to guide Shia religiously before you read my comment above, anyway another link this time read it before claiming things that aren’t true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatbir#Views_of_Grand_Ayatollahs_regarding_Tatbir
if you dont know these where the most prominent Marji3s of their time and most of them passed away quite recently.
As for your claim that you reserached well sorry you wouldn’t have made such contradictory statements in each comment, first you placed it on the clerics then I tell you that two prominent clerics are against it, you respond to someone telling him that shia clerics forbid it, I correct you and tell you that there is not a consensus on this issue AND give you a link proving it, then you reply to me telling me ” those who are assigned to guide Shi’ites religiously happen to agree with me”
which, as I pointed out above in this comment is not true.
PS- Engage brain before fingers or mouth it will do you wonders
And Shi’ites are all one group? Come on Najib, stop generalizing. It’s like saying all Catholics are the same.
If you don’t like it, you don’t have to accept it, but if a group of people want to follow a specific tradition, then it’s their right to do so, who are you (or anyone) to tell them that it’s wrong?
Shi’ites in Lebanon are more homogeneous than any other group and this is a fact, not a generalization and it’s very hard for small groups to organize such events without the two key players’ consent.
Please do tell Naj what do you mean when you say that: “Shi’ites in Lebanon are more homogeneous than any other group “?
Abuuud,
It means they are not as divided (politically and religiously) as Christians and Sunnites are and have a a better unified leadership than others.
What did you think I meant?
He has every right to say what he wants just as much as they have the right to whatever they want, if he (and a lot of people in Lebanon) sees this as affecting Lebanon’s image in a negative way then he has the right to state his opinion on the matter. This is a medieval way to commemorate the martyrdom of Huseyn. There are a lot of ways to mark this day, like by gathering in the mosques for sorrowful poetic recitations, reenactment of passion plays set in the holy city of Karbalaa which is the equivalent of the Via Dolorosa that is performed by Christians on Good Friday. When asked about why they were sacrificing their blood and doing self flagellation (by a TV reporter), they said that they were doing it for the sake of Huseyn (Kello fida el Huseyn). Seriously, why would he need your blood and sacrifice, is he a deity that you’re trying to please? And for the record, we don’t have self flagellation and real life crucifixion performed by Christians of this area, it is mainly done by South East Christians in Asia and some parts of Latin America. That too is an undermining way of celebrating the death of Jesus Christ.
“That too is an undermining way of celebrating the death of Jesus Christ.”
Regardless, you have no right to prevent them if no seriuos harm is caused
What the hell is wrong with your logic? Who’s preventing them? I’m just giving an opinion which is: self sacrifice is RETARDED! point à la ligne. I’m entitled to my opinion, let them do whatever the hell they wanna do.
If you’re worried about Lebanons image, this is the least of your concerns, especially with this government of ours and all the political parties.
We don’t even have 24/7 electricity and you think these images from this one day is impacting Lebanon negatively?
Foreign Media will not cover the electricity problem in Lebanon but will sure show such displays on their TV. It’s not a big worry but we’d be better without it that’s all.
This is simply disgusting and barbaric. Instead of shedding blood let them donate some.
There’s no religion in the world that would accept such an act, especially in Islam.
And when you say,it’s ok as long as they are not hurting anyone else, what about the kids, is that acceptable?
As for Christianity, would you mind please Abbud and Patrick, name one just one Lebanese who crucified himself in Lebanon during Easter, or even better show a picture.
Michele, I want to quote the part in which I said that Christians in Lebanon did this, you wont find it because guess what? I never claimed that. Stop imagining things
Wlik exactly ya abuud this is what nagib was talking about.
He condemns doing it in Lebanon as it projects a negative impression to the world and this is when I asked u when did u ever seen a Lebanese Christian getting crucified.
I simply don’t get it! Is there any reference in the Koran regarding this ritual? or was it something that was initiated randomly?
Abuuud
Like I said, I don’t want to turn it into a political debate. Let’s leave it there.
I will not bother answer a comment full of foul language. You engaged in religious matters and want to teach me about Shiites and who’s who because I said none condemmed it.
Read my original post and you will see all I am saying is that Ashoura COULD be celebrated in a better more decent way than a bloodshed in the street. If they still wanna do it every year, yostoflo but I am allowed to state my opinion on the matter without of course insulting any religion which I NEVER did.
No one insulted anyone or sounded racist like some suggested. If you agree with that, let’s leave it there.
So you chickened out, fair enough by me.
Very mature.
Are you gonna start making “Bak bak” sounds soon?
Najib he was thinking of the meghwar lol.:D
Well as they say if you cant beat them join’em. Every time I gave you an answer to your generalisations, you ignored it and continued spewing your baseless opinions and as usual Najib when backed into a corner says oh I cant answer you you are using foul language, my heart bleeds for you.
PS- Judging by the xenophobic trash you posted about the Kurds in Burj Hammoud the other day I know you are the guy with the problem not me
The person who starts using foul language is always the one with the weakest argument.
Xenophobic trash you say?
If you don’t like it, don’t read it 🙂
Najib, I’m not saying this to poke fun or insult you or anything, it’s just an observation I’ve made, and something I noticed you do regularly.
This blog isn’t meant to be political or religious in nature (or so you say), yet you’ll write a blog post about a sensitive issue that has political and religious connotations, and more times than not, the comments always lead into those topics as well.
Then you post a comment like:
“I don’t want to turn this into a political debate”
If you don’t want your comments to turn into a political debate than don’t post about political or sensitive issues. Or if you do want to post about a political/religious issue you need to be very careful on how you word your posts. You generalize way too much and you do come off as insensitive at times.
How many times have you posted a blogpost, but needed to edit it and re-word it because someone pointed something out that was incorrect/insensitive/wrong/insulting? I’m not trying to imply that you can’t write your opinions on things, you can, by all means, it’s your blog. But don’t come out and say you don’t want politics or religion here, then you’re just being hypocritical by being able to share your opinion (as harsh as it is), and not letting others do the same. You can’t start a debate and all of a sudden stop it because you don’t want it to “turn into a political debate”, you began this debate the moment you post something like this.
I’ve been reading this blog since it’s conception and this is what I’ve observed, this is my 2 cents on the matter. Take what you want from it.
A direction you could have taken this blogpost is to write about the lengths people go to follow religious traditions, about self mutilation in religious traditions. Ashoura is just one example.
One I find interesting is the Vegetarian Festival in Phuket, Thailand that is pretty extreme and is still practiced today. Google it at your own risk, this is part of it from Wiki
“Many religious devotees will slash themselves with swords, pierce their cheeks with sharp objects and commit other painful acts.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian_Festival
Patrick,
I always look forward to your feedbacks and never take it as an insult. On the contrary, it’s most welcome.
I try to stay away from many sensitive topics and I refrained from posting about a LOT of them believe it or not, but sometimes I feel an urge to post about something like Ashoura or the Burj Hammoud incident and others and somehow it turns political. Keep in mind it’s Lebanon and everything turns political so I can’t really control it, however I will make sure to check every word I say because apparently people are interpreting it wrong or maybe I am overgeneralizing like you said. As for the insensitive part, I say things as they are, that’s just how I am and seeing that many people agree with my point of view at times proves that it’s not all that wrong. Anyway, I will keep that in mind even though in Ashoura’s case, I think many readers could have easily taken it like I meant it and agreed that it should stopped, without embarking in the Shiite leaderships and labeling me as racist, an absurd accusation if you ask me.
Also, I stopped debating with that specific person because he was using foul language and I honestly don’t like debating with impolite and immature people. I kept the debate up until he started cursing. I didnt delete any of his comments but I refrained from answering.
Anyway, the solution is not to stop posting about certain topics but trying to rephrase them in the most appropriate way possible and keeping in mind the sensitive readers 🙂
Thanks for the input.
You have to remember that when you post something a lot of people will read your blog post and there are a lot of people out there and generally a few of them will always take something the wrong way, like you said it’s Lebanon and everything turns political. And you’re right, not posting about something isn’t always the answer, it really depends on the topic and there are always ways to tackle a topic.
Like I said in another comment, a way you might have tackled this specific issue was to discuss other religious traditions that are similar to Ashoura make it a more broad statement and not something focused on the Shi’ites or any other one group in particular.
Anyways, I appreciate your reply and even though this topic turned sour with certain users, it was still interesting to read.
this MUST be BANNED by law.
I believe such a reaction on a similar act is justified as it’s something inhuman no one has the right to do to himself. But as it was said, please don’t generalize, these are just customs that are not related to Islam in any form. Same as when individuals in some parts of the world get crucified. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582212/Easter-warning-crucifixion-is-bad-for-you.html)
An interesting article for all of us to learn of the true value of Ashoura away from the adopted traditions and customs:
http://arabic.bayynat.org/achoura/ashoraa_mokabala.htm
Happy reading! 7ebbo ba3od 🙂
I agree with Najib; I’m so glad I wasn’t in Lebanon on Ashoura day this year because it has disgusted me ever since I was little. Seeing those scenes on daytime television as a kid would gross me out every year. I don’t care what they do, just don’t televise it at least. Seeing photos of Christians crucifying themselves in the newspaper would EQUALLY gross me out. The point is, these actions (both the Ashoura and crucifixion) seem and are barbaric to outsiders who might or might not have an idea about what the commemoration is about. Also, it is not only the country that is being judged, but its PEOPLE too. Which is even worse. Yes, sadly, people just generalize and judge a country after seeing just one aspect of it (e.g. terrorism). So I completely understand Najib’s concerns.
Coming to the method itself: it is obviously a huge risk to take and there are victims every year if I remember correctly.
It is sad that this post which was only an opinion about the subject turned into an ugly debate…
One man’s extremism is one man’s faith.
I’m Sunni (don’t let my first name fool you :P) but living in Kuwait and been in Lebanon during my AUB years, tolerance is something you have to achieve to get the country moving again.
To me it might be unusual, but since I am not a Shiite there are some things I will not understand about this practice.
I saw a program about the Opus Dei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei) on the History Channel, and this group is known for self-torture and gender separation etc. Again, many Christian priests who were interviewed for this program criticized those practices.
Just do your own damn thing, let’s fight over politics; not over religion. This will only cause more problems, and that was seen in 1975.
Cheers yo.
well well well Najib, isn’t that your most popular post or what?? hehehe, wanna see the comments hit the roof??? here’s mine: RETARDS!!!!! cheers!!!
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSWPQT3kRSp4MdMZtF0jfcx6vfsFiY2k80Kvd8k2Gl7njeDYbqF9AngCbEE
http://kamangir.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/r2493103858.jpg
believe me you don’t want to see those images
ya3neh 3ashou betfawet 7alak bel hal khabsa:p